It’s Not US, It’s THEM!

You probably can’t tell from my blog posts, but I love words.  I love the sound of them, the feel of them in my mouth and at my fingertips.  How changing just one word can transform a sentence from shit to shinola.

So I love it when somebody proves me right-ish.  Or like I’m in the right pew.

For decades one term has bothered me.  “Pro-Choice.”

Abortion ain’t a “whole wheat or rye” sort of “choice.”

So I’ve had my thinking cap on for all that time, trying to think of a better way to say it.  What else could it be called?  What word can express the magnitude of that decision for any woman.

And am I the person to come up with it anyway?  You see, I never had an abortion.  I never was able to get pregnant.  So perhaps it isn’t my role.

But I do know women who’ve had abortions. I’ve sat with them, talked with them, consoled them.  They have been friends and near-strangers who somehow tell me their deepest trouble.  They are not women who are making a “choice.” Rather they are women slicing a piece of their own heart out, most often because they have no “choice.”

That includes two women who were forced to have late-term terminations.  You know, the kind that is being outlawed in state after state, mostly by men, with no exceptions for rape, incest, the life of the mother.  No basis in the real world of what women face.

These two women had nearly identical stories.  Their prenatal testing showed that their fetuses had trisomy 18 (From WebMD):

A “trisomy” means that the baby has an extra chromosome in some or all of the body’s cells. In the case of trisomy 18, the baby has three copies of chromosome 18. This causes many of the baby’s organs to develop in an abnormal way.

There are three types of trisomy 18:

Full trisomy 18. The extra chromosome is in every cell in the baby’s body. This is by far the most common type of trisomy 18.

Partial trisomy 18.The child has only part of an extra chromosome 18. That extra part may be attached to another chromosome in the egg or sperm (called a translocation). This type of trisomy 18 is very rare.

Mosaic trisomy 18. The extra chromosome 18 is only in some of the baby’s cells. This form of trisomy 18 is also rare.

***

What Is the Outlook for Babies With Trisomy 18?

Because trisomy 18 causes such serious physical defects, many babies with the condition don’t survive to birth. About half of babies who are carried full-term are stillborn. Boys with trisomy 18 are more likely to be stillborn than girls.

Of those babies who do survive, less than 10% live to reach their first birthday. Children who do live past that milestone often have severe health problems that require a large amount of care. Only a very small number of people with this condition live into their 20s or 30s.

Both women were happily married.  They and their husbands wanted their babies; they were devastated by the news.  These women had to choose when, not if the baby they wanted so much would die.  One of them said that because their fetus had a condition called Intra-uterine growth restriction, the baby would essentially starve to death inside of her.  And then she’d go through labor.

See what I mean about “choice”?  It’s way more like being between a rock and a hard place.  Or just being in a hard place.

In all my years, and with the numerous women I’ve known who’ve terminated a pregnancy, there was only one who did it casually.  She’s a staunch Republican.

So I was delighted when I read about Sister Joan Chittister recently.  Because she’s the one who made me realize it’s not us, it’s them.

We’re not necessarily the ones with the wrong term.  They are.  Because they are DECIDEDLY NOT PRO-LIFE:

I do not believe that just because you’re opposed to abortion, that that makes you pro-life. In fact, I think in many cases, your morality is deeply lacking if all you want is a child born but not a child fed, not a child educated, not a child housed. And why would I think that you don’t?  Because you don’t want any tax money to go there.

Thanks Google.

Thanks Google.

That’s not pro-life. That’s pro-birth. We need a much broader conversation on what the morality of pro-life is.

Nuns Rule!

104 Comments

Filed under 2016, Abortion, Adult Traumas, All The News You Need, All We Are Saying Is Give Peace A Chance, Cancer on Society, Catholic Church, Nuns, Pro-Birth

104 responses to “It’s Not US, It’s THEM!

  1. Just stopped by on my way home from a dinosaur’s birthday party 😉 to say hi — and what a post to have landed on. YES to “pro-birth is not the same as pro-life”! YES to the Nuns on the Bus are awesome!
    Hope you have a great Friday. Been a pleasure “meeting” you!
    best, alice

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks, Alice. Nice to meet you too. I need to get back over to Rara’s party (haven’t been able to since I left my comment there).

      I think somehow we need a movement to change the terms. They are both awful!

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      • Are you familiar with the term (and the philosophy) of “reproductive justice”? It’s an approach started by and grounded in the lives of women of color, and which integrates the issues of abortion rights and access with a much broader range of issues — all of which affect women’s rights over their own bodies and reproductive choices.

        If you’re interested, I did the first round of googling for you! 😉
        http://www.protectchoice.org/section.php?id=28

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        • Aren’t you nice. Would you do my work-work for me too?!? Please???

          I glanced through it and it seems very worthwhile. Abortion, while I believe strongly that it should be safe and legal is a tough issue. I wouldn’t consider myself an advocate for it. Mostly I work for democratic political campaigns (periodically, when the shit is hitting the fan). That works toward a lot of the things I feel strongly about — abortion, healthcare, voting rights, gun control, not electing neanderthals to positions where they impact my life. That sort of thing.

          I blog about things that strike me as important — or stuff I just think is fun. I’m kind of random that way!

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  2. Did you watch it?! Fantastic. You’ve got to give respect to those Fox News moderators. And I’m not joking. I thought it was going to be a 2-hour, suck-up love fest with softball questions designed to make the candidates shine but it was just the opposite. They, basically, attacked the candidates. Some of the questioning seemed downright mean spirited and aggressive. You go Megyan–with your wet lips and barbed commentary. My man Kasich looked good. The only one up there displaying true compassion for the underprivileged.

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    • I watched a lot of it. And I agree that Kasich looked good. (That isn’t his record as guv, though, especially towards the poor)

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      • No offense–you know I love our talks–but this is why it’s so hard to have a dialog with an ideologue. You’re always ready with a counter-punch–even when you haven’t been swung at. It’s tiring.

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        • Perhaps.

          I will agree that Kasich is the most reasonable and likely most electable of the bunch. But he cut tons from anti-poverty programs. So do you judge a candidate by what he does or says? Was George W a compassionate conservative? That’s what he said as a candidate. Not so much when he took office.

          But even if the GOP nominee walks on water, I will vote for the Democrat. There is no choice. The House is firmly in GOP hands. The Senate is in GOP hands and likely to stay that way. Thus the consequences of a Republican president will be quite serious. There will be probably two supreme court vacancies in the next president’s term. You want them chosen by the GOP? You have two daughters. Roe v. Wade will be history and the states that are enacting anti-abortion laws don’t give a shit about the woman. You want that for your daughters should something unthinkable happen?

          I don’t know Kasich’s stand on Iran. (if it was asked I didn’t hear it, and I don’t generally pay attention to governors on foreign policy because unless they become prez what they say doesn’t matter. But all the folks on that dias are unwilling to give peace a chance. They all want to follow John McCain’s lead.

          So if you want to call me an ideologue, OK. I have been studying politics — first as a lobbyist (one of my clients was the Koch brothers, believe it or not!) now as an active, informed voter. If the GOP had’t gone off the rails, as I have said, I would probably be a liberal Republican. That species is extinct. I have become a very liberal, very committed Democrat. Because I have seen what the GOP has done at all the different levels, starting with school board. And it ain’t pretty.

          The US used to be a country where we built things. But the GOP as I see it wants to destroy, either by bombing anybody they don’t agree with or by just cutting taxes so much that there is no money for roads. For bridges. For upgrading the power grid. For feeding the hungry. For educating our children.

          And I think that’s wrong. I will act, I will vote, and I will blog according to my beliefs, as I think you do.

          I enjoy our discussions too. But I am going to present my point of view in my blog. That’s why I started it. That’s why I continue it. It’s what I do.

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          • Just a quick note because I have to log into work. I hope you’ll continue to blog according to your beliefs. If I find out you’ve censored yourself for any reason you’ll lose a loyal reader. 😉

            The Koch brothers?! For real?!

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            • The Koch brothers for real (although every time I see a photo of them, I think of the movie Trading Places.

              I’m still not quite sure how it happened. It was 30 years ago and they weren’t the same political guys they are now. But my boss, a committed Dem, landed them. We did energy law (I specialized in environmental issues that were mostly peripheral) I haven’t seen my old boss since I made the connection. And while I know I did do a couple of minor projects for them (energy based, not environmental) I don’t recall what they were. And I’d forgotten until a year or so ago.

              So perhaps I am atoning?!

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  3. Elyse. Well done. I read all the comments as well. I must say this is not an easy subject to categorize. I come from the “pro-life” camp but transitioned to the “pro-choice” camp when I had a revelation that this issue is extremely complicated, which is why we need to keep wrestling with it and not become entrenched in our separate camps. Your heartwarming stories as well as “silentlyheardonce” comment broke my heart. Here’s another perspective: you’ve read my first book. What if I had gotten pregnant from rape at 6, 7, or 9 years old? An abortion would have been a act of mercy for me (there are scores of horrendous stories of children in other countries–heavily Catholic–who have given birth to children because of rape/incest). Either, both the child-mother and the baby die during birth, or the baby does and the child is psychologically and physically crippled. On the other hand, the tone of the PP videos that are being released show a capriciousness that I can never become comfortable with. There is a balance, but where it is, we still need to keep searching for it. But your post is a good place to start a measured, thought-provoking discussion.

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    • Thanks, Eleanor. It is a really hard subject. Few folks are on the fence on this one.

      There are so many stories. So many different heartaches. And an especially early pregnancy from rape? Oh lord. I know it does happen, but…

      Having worked in medicine for so long, I have to say that gallows humor and/or a very business like attitude about difficult subject is a necessity. How else can one deal with subjects like suicide, shipping body parts, and any number of things that are part and parcel of one’s job? How else?

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  4. I never used the term pro-life until just this moment. Before I became an adult and knew the expense of having children I didn’t believe in abotions. I becamd pregnant at 15 and I was forced by my mother to have an abortion. My uncle took me to the hotel where the clinic was. Before going in Reasons by Earth Wind and Fire was playing my uncle had me listen to the son to the end. Today when I hear reason I remember. But no longer with regret. My first born is almost 40 years old and mentality ill, his life has been rough. My mother scheduled a late term abotion while I was pregnant with him. That morning my son moved for the first time and I saw his fingers under my skin. When my asked why I wasn’t getting ready like on cue my son moved his hand again. So I gave birth and because of the hell his life has been for us I think an abortion would have been more human. I support the right for woman to choose yet I am anti-gun and the death penalty shouldn’t be. I think if someone was to commit a crime of the magnitude to warrent the death penalty let them live with the horror of it. Those that kill them selves after mass murder don’t want to live with the horror that will haunt them. Yet the expense on the tax papers isn’t fair. So pro-choice or pro-life I can’t take a firm stand on either because life decisions aren’t that clear cut. But I do know the republicans way of thinking is dangerous and will eventually make all those syfy movies a furure reality. Living in over population in an uninhabitable environment and we will be fighting over food with guns and no medication to cure the ill.

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    • I don’t quite know how to respond to such a heart-felt, heart-aching story. But you did point out why it is such a hard topic — because as you said, “life decisions aren’t that clear cut.” They’re hard, they change a person’s life beyond measure. And nobody has the right to judge for another. Nobody. And when the measure impacts women oh so much more than men, the fact that it is men making these decisions is unconscionable.

      I too and anti-gun and anti death penalty. Different questions for a different day!

      I wish you peace (NOT the eternal kind yet, though). Yours has not been an easy life.

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  5. The trouble with pro-life is it focuses on the baby to the mother’s detriment. Its almost like the woman doesn’t matter which is probably an old holdover from misogynic religious decrees.

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  6. C’mon, Elyse, are these our ONLY choices? If you’re against killing unborn children you must be a morally bankrupt bastard who does nothing to help the living? And if you choose to have an abortion you must be either an innocent victim of rape/incest/medical tragedy or a hypocritical Republican?

    I guess this is why this is one of those topics you’re not supposed to discuss at cocktail parties. Can I have a martini? Make it a double.

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    • Well, given that the anti-abortion folks have dubbed themselves “pro-life” I think that deserves an examination. Not all folks who are anti-abortion (and I used to be firmly in that camp) are horrible people, I get that. The ones who stand outside of clinics are however. Horrible. People.

      But it DOES seem that the politicians — 98.9% male (OK, I made that up, but it is REALLY a high %) who are enacting the laws, state by state, that make abortion nearly impossible for most women, are the same ones that cut funding for feeding children, who promote school vouchers over public funding for decent schools, and who are also in favor of cutting funding for women’s healthcare and contraception.

      You can have a double martini on me. Because we disagree on so many things, but always manage to have a conversation anyway. That is really important.

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  7. And, just to be clear:

    Around half of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously, usually before the woman knows she is pregnant. Among women who know they are pregnant, the miscarriage rate is about 15-20%. Most miscarriages occur during the first 7 weeks of pregnancy.

    From: Miscarriage: MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

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  8. This is excellent, go Nun’s! You know where I fall on the debate. Elizabeth Warren was on the floor of the Senate yesterday and ripped into them regarding the attempt to defund Planned Parenthood. Many have jumped on her since, of course they have because the reasoning behind the defunding is a bunch of highly edited videos that have no basis in truth.

    Pro-Life? Really? These fools are no more Pro-Life than I am Pro-Gun.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks for letting me know about EW — I have her speech going now. I really wish she had chosen to run for president. (I am lukewarm on everybody). And of course the right is jumping on her — in addition to it being their favorite sport, she’s right. She’s nearly always right. Go Elizabeth.

      And yes, these folks are “pro-life” and Pro-death sentence. Pro-gun. Pro-poverty. Pro-idiocy. They make me sick.

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      • If you listen to Cornyn of Texas who I think spoke before her you will hear just how ideologically insane they really are.

        I am actually glad she didn’t run this time. I don’t think she could have gone up against Hilary and I think she will do more good where she is.

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        • I’m not a fan of Hilary — I think she will make a good president. But I am not enthusiastic at all. I love Bernie’s positions on most everything (except guns), but he can’t win. Joe?

          Oh well, Hilary it will be. And everything will be rehashed. Ho hum.

          But Cronyn is nuts. What is in your water, woman?

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  9. OMG! yes! I’ve only just “met” you and I know I will love your blog! I saw this post on my Facebook newsfeed the other day (while I was at work) and had so much to say about it. You’ve really said it better than I could.

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    • Thanks Agatha Ann! It’s nice to have another like-minded friend.

      I’d read this awhile back (like two whole weeks or so) and mulled it over ever since. It makes so much sense!

      Liked by 1 person

  10. I’ve refused to use the term pro-life for many years and many reasons. I call them anti-choice. They are not pro-life as you point out. They are not pro-life when it comes to the health or well being of women at all, or children, if you think about it. They are simply anti-abortion. It’s their way or no way at all. (The fact that so many anti-choice, anti-abortion protesters are also vociferously pro-death penalty and pro-gun astounds me. Though it shouldn’t. Not really.)

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    • Yes! There are so many facets to the debate, and frankly, the pro-birthers fall into one pit after another.

      And they just never admit that it is not a black and white decision.

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  11. I never like the term pro-life because people are all for letting the fetuses live but where are they when the babies need food and shelter? Are they pro-life when it comes to supporting them once they are alive outside of the uterus?

    And I agree that the word “choice” seems too cavalier. The problem is that this issue is not one of “this or that.” It’s not that simple or easily defined. People like to label and put put people into neat categories, but that’s deceptive. Every moral or social or political is too complex to boil down into a “Hatfields v McCoys” type argument. But so many of us fall into the comfort of one camp or the other, and get washed away with assumptions that never/rarely get explored, challenged, or exposed. Why not? It’s too confusing and makes peoples’ head hurt… 😐

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    • That’s exactly my point. What hypocrites!

      As to your second point — that it’s not black and white, that’s exactly right too. Which is why the decision shouldn’t be legislated. It should be individual. Oh, and safe and legal. But I think we both agree on that!

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  12. Generally speaking, I think the people who should be listened to in questions of this sort are medical professionals rather than politicians or religious leaders. Metaphysical questions about whether a fetus does or does not have a soul are all very well, but I think the fact that, for example, a particular child will be born in agonizing pain and then die after a few weeks is much more relevant.

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  13. them… I hate them… their cynicism… using words to make it sound like they aren’t as heartless as they really are… pro life my disappearing ass! You can’t constantly vote to continue the death penalty and stop any kind of gun regulations and call yourself pro life… when you are against anybody in life who is different than you… different sexual orientation… or color… or religion… ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

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  14. Reblogged this on Still Skeptical After All These Years and commented:
    My record on women’s issues is not very good, but here is a reblogged post that I totally respect on the abortion issue.

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    • Thanks for the re-blog, Jim. As to your record on women’s issues, I don’t know — I haven’t been following you for too long. But I have read many comments in many posts over the years — and you have yet to piss me off. That’s a pretty good benchmark!

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      • But I have read many comments in many posts over the years — and you have yet to piss me off. That’s a pretty good benchmark!

        Gee, Elyse, that does sound like an achievement! There’s no, ah, trophy that goes with that, I assume. :blush:

        Actually, when I wrote of my failings I was actually thinking of some fluffy comments I made a week or two ago on Tilted Tiara’s blog about rape. I made a statistically-unsupportable suggestion that provocative clothing made rape more likely. I had my head handed to me. I’m now much more streamlined, what with my ears pinned back and all, but the scorched smell has now faded. 🙄 😉

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  15. Yours is probably the best essay on the abortion debate I have read, Elyse. Well done. I would like to add one point to punctuate the message: about half of all fertilized eggs are naturally aborted. It’s part of the process. This is, ironically, somewhat like the gun control issue, the devil being in the details.

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    • Thanks, Jim. What a compliment.

      And I agree with your point — spontaneous abortions happen frequently (although I didn’t realize that it was half).

      Another point that didn’t fit with this narrative is the fact that abortions have been going on for as long as women have been getting pregnant. Always. The difference is in recent times we made it safe and legal. What the pro-birthers are trying to do is to force women back into the alleys.

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  16. It’s all about branding. Even when it comes to abortion. I worked for a brief time in public relations and people can’t IMAGINE how important it is to choose the right words. Everyone does it. Liberals have re-branded themselves as Progressives, the thought being, if you’re thinking isn’t progressive, it’s stagnant.

    For the record I think abortion should be provided without any restrictions whatsoever. Who’s business is it? Not mine. Not the churches. Certainly not the government.

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  17. Really interesting and well-put piece. You’re so right about the wording, I’d never properly thought about it, and yet I find that whenever I hear the two terms pro-life and pro-choice, I actually have to stop and think which is which, it doesn’t straight away seem obvious to me, and now I know why because neither term is quite right! In any case, to have just two terms like that, as if there’s just black and white, doesn’t begin to describe the range of different circumstances, choices, non-choices, etc that there are.

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    • Thanks, V-J. The pro-birthed seem to think that it is only sluts who get abortions. Or maybe it’s simpler than that; all women are sluts except their mothers.

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      • I don’t think it’s only sluts who get abortions and I certainly don’t think anything ridiculous like “all women are sluts except my mother”. I understand that anyone contemplating abortion is going through a whirlwind of emotions and heavy circumstances. The decision should never be made lightly. The verdict is out on whether it should be our decision or nature’s. It’s a very complex issue and there are all kinds of different situations surrounding it.

        I also don’t think that all liberals hate conservatives or vice-versa. There are huge degrees of difference along the spectrum between far left-wing and far right-wing. I think that anyone on the extremes is fairly full of shiza.

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        • Who’s “verdict”? Our decision or nature’s???could you look that woman in the eye and say “you must carry that child to term even though it will starve to death inside of you”? There are few crueler things that could be done.

          But of course the men who make the laws — don’t bother arguing that one because it is always men who impose these laws — would not be the ones to tell that woman that. Nope. They’d do it in a press release

          The verdict was reached in 1973 when abortion became legal.

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          • Let’s just talk you and me right now. You are generalizing and vilifying “men”. I’m not attacking your gender with anything I’m saying.

            What I meant by “verdict” is … even if you and I saw eye to eye on this matter… the issue at large is still totally in contention.

            I have a hard time trying to find exactly where the line must be drawn because I can see both sides of these arguments. I am saying that my heart is conflicted, but I do in fact have a heart. I think if a baby is going to die anyway, better to abort it earlier (mercy killing, as long as it is done in a quick, least-painful-as-possible way).

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            • Timiny, I know that you like to argue. But I took the bait and I will continue.

              The abortion debate is not “just you and me” and it really doesn’t matter a whit what you or I think about it. Because the debate is being decided by others. I am not attacking YOUR gender either, when I say this debate is being decided by men who will never have to make the decision about whether or not to end a pregnancy. It is these folks, these men, that I vilify. I don’t plan to stop until they do.

              The point of the post was not, however, to argue the merits of abortion. It was merely to point out that the “pro-lifers” don’t believe in children, they believe in embryos. They don’t think that there is a role in society for underprivileged children. That those “former embryos” as John Stewart once called them, deserve to eat, to be housed and to be educated. Nope, once the umbilical chord is cut, they are cut off.

              And given the proposals by male politicians in statehouses nationwide, I think it is a sad state of affairs.

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              • You keep saying “they” or talking about those “pro-lifers”… and that makes it easier to distance oneself from “them”. I am much more “pro-life” than “pro-choice”, so here I am saying talk to me. No, I’m not one of the ones out in front of clinics yelling while holding a sign. I’m not trying to shame women who get abortions. I’m not creating anti-abortion policies or writing my congressman about it… I’m not even blogging about it.

                I don’t try to be argumentative… I guess you just have a way of ruffling my feathers (not a bad thing) and it compels me to speak out for the other side. (because the typical response to people’s posts is “ra ra.. right on… go, you!… absolutely! … totally agree here!” and I don’t think that accurately represents the demographics.

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                • I had planned on responding to your comment last night. But we had a power failure, so I couldn’t.

                  The point of this post was hypocrisy — that so many people who call themselves “pro-life” are really only interested in the fetus before it is born. Once born, they don’t give a shit. The point of the post was to point out that many who use that term, turn their backs once the baby is born and needs food, housing and education. The point of the post was that, therefore, the term “pro-life” really is a misnomer — that they should be called “pro-birth” instead, because once that occurs, they don’t give a shit. These are the people who are making our laws. Yes they are predominantly men — “Women make up 24.2 percent of all state legislators nationwide.” (Take a look at this website, it has an amazing map showing just where there are higher and lower percentages by state: http://www.ncsl.org/legislators-staff/legislators/womens-legislative-network/women-in-state-legislatures-for-2014.aspx)

                  The point of the post was NOT to argue about abortion, but to point out how the terms used to describe the “sides” are not good ones — I think the term “pro-choice” sucks too. It makes it sound like you’re deciding between pairs of shoes, not making a decision that has such overwhelming consequences.

                  I am not “pro-abortion,” I am not “pro-death.” But I believe that there are situations that impact people I know and people that I don’t know. And they should be permitted to make the decision to terminate a pregnancy — a huge, difficult decision for nearly all women — without judgment, without impediments and without some state legislature sticking an ultrasound want up her vagina. The decision to have an abortion belongs to the pregnant woman. Period.

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                  • The decision to have an abortion doesn’t just affect the mother; it affects the child. That is the entire reason that there is even a dispute about this issue.

                    Your sentence, “…they should be permitted to make the decision to terminate a pregnancy…” doesn’t seem to take the baby into account. There is a human being being killed. That carries some gravity!

                    If murder has all these laws prohibiting it which we can all agree upon… why does abortion (killing an unborn human) suddenly get carte blanche?

                    (I’m not even 100% against it, either! There are many situations that I totally agree with you that the best, safest thing is to abort the fetus. I think there should be some well defined scenarios for when it is sensible to abort, and when it isn’t. I believe there are some cases when it is the most humane option… and some situations where, if the mother already planned not to keep the baby, then the baby should be adopted out… if our adoption system is crappy, then we fight to improve it, but abortion can’t be the solution to keeping kids from having to go through a crappy foster/adoption system.)

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                    • I am actually an adoptive mother. I believe in adoption, too. They are different alternatives for similar situations — unexpected consequences. Both involve cutting out a piece of one’s heart. But that is not the point of this post.

                      If you would like to write a post, discussing the pros and cons of abortion, be my guest. Link it back to this post, if you’d like.

                      But that is not what this post is about. This post, as I have said numerous times, is about the hypocrisy of folks who claim to be “pro-life” but don’t care about what happens to the children after they are born. They also don’t believe in providing appropriate healthcare for pregnant women. Among other issues I have with them that I have mentioned a similar number of times.

                      So stop.

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                    • Alright, I will.

                      But as I go… I want you to know that I respect you, and I think you write very well. I swear I’m not trying to be a troll or to argue for the sake of argument. Even if our opinions may rankle one another, know that I have a high opinion of you all the same.

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                    • It was time to end the debate. This part of it, anyway.

                      I don’t think you’re a troll. I think you like to argue, but that’s OK.

                      It is important for folks on different sides of an issue to talk/write about it. It helps clarify, convince and comfort all positions.

                      I hadn’t intended to open up the whole subject, merely the portion of it I selected. But that was silly of me.

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                    • That raises a good question. Should we be allowed to / can we control the ways that people respond?

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                    • Yes I can spam you or edit you any old time! So be careful to always agree

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                    • Hehe, or you may edit my words to say something embarrassing. :p

                      Liked by 1 person

          • I’ve had numerous conversations with people about it.. and to me, it’s really about where the line is drawn… because, couldn’t it be argued that unfertilized eggs were destined to be real people with souls? So every time a woman has a period, there is death? Or MUCH worse yet… every time a guy masturbates… MILLIONS of sperm are shot out and die… isn’t that much worse?

            If I were just drawing things black or white, then I would have to argue that yes.. the biggest culprits are males ejaculating into a tissue and then tossing it into the toilet.

            I’m not looking to place blame at all. I don’t think abortion should be 100% ok nor 100% never ok. Probably more of a case-by-case situation. But it’s never an easy thing, either way.

            Like

            • It is not a black and white issue. But making abortion illegal, puting such impediments in the way of the doctors who perform this very necessary procedure without exceptions — without thinking about the babies born of rape, of incest, who will be horribly — often painfully disabled. To pester and defund Planned Parenthood which provides women’s health services to poor women to enable them to bear healthy babies, is unconcionable.

              Pro-life indeed.

              Like

  18. My sister babysat for a woman whose fetus had T 18. She was also married with two children and to abort her baby was the most painful event. I have always hated the pro choice, pro life terms. Lol@ go nuns…some are pretty cool. They are people too. They didn’t hatch.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Go nuns. I’ve mostly had good (although limited) experience with them.

      And yes in fact I think Late term abortions are probably the most difficult. They’re wanted and wished-for.

      Like

  19. I like this perspective. Thanks for sharing it. Another perspective that I value a lot comes from a woman who channels a group of beings (The Council) who seek to help other by answering questions about life and things that come up in life. They have had several questions asked on the topic of abortion, and what keeps coming through is that there is no right or wrong. When an abortion happens, there is ALWAYS an agreement between the souls for it. It’s not an issue of life and death because of our inherent eternal nature. This post includes a recording of The Council answering one woman’s question about an abortion she had. http://askthecouncil.com/2015/01/24/was-abortion-part-of-her-souls-plan/
    I have experienced having a child that I am raising, having a child who was given up for adoption, having an abortion, and also having a miscarriage, and the information The Council brings forth has always helped me.

    Liked by 1 person

  20. For starters, 3 points: I can honestly say don’t knowingly know a person who has had an abortion, I’ve never knowingly been with a women who has had an abortion, and I have never had an abortion. For the rest of the story, you’ve given me, someone who is Pro-Choice, good fodder for pondering. Thanks.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sure Frank. I don’t think it is a topic most women would bring up to a man. So over you have/do know some women who have.

      But you’re on the correct side of the mid-named fight!

      Liked by 1 person

  21. NotAPunkRocker

    I love Sister Joan and completely agree with her. 🙂

    Funny, when I was an unwed, pregnant teen, all the “pro life” family members wanted me to get an abortion. They were confused that since I am “pro choice” that I said I would be having and keeping him.

    I really wanted to ask them what the definition of “choice” was, but I am already persona non grata, so I let it go. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    • My sister made the same choice — my niece is one of the most wonderful people on the earth.

      I actually find just that sort of hypocrisy to be EXACTLY the problem with today’s GOP. THINGS SHOULD BE BANNED OR NOT FUNDED OR WHATEVER until they impact them!

      Your so sounds wonderful — in a “I love my kid when I don’t want to throttle him” way. Which is how I feel about my son!

      Liked by 1 person

      • NotAPunkRocker

        I probably need to write up my story again, it’s been a while, but yeah. The crisis centers pushed for adoption to the point of harrassment. My family wanted me to have an abortion and take care of the “problem”.

        Funny enough (if you don’t know their mandate,that is), Planned Parenthood was the place that found me a doctor who wasn’t rude about my lack of marital status and age to be my OB (private practice, not associated with PP).

        Liked by 1 person

  22. Trisomy 18 is indeed a devastating condition, and what a woman (or couple) decides to do in that situation should be up to them and them alone. Too bad that right continues to be encroached upon, and in some states, even taken away due to the restrictive abortion conditions. Everyone would love to see less abortions–I think we can all agree on that–so if only we’d thoroughly invest in preventing them in the first place. Three cheers to Sister Joan Chittister!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Funny — I was trying to work in that “nobody is really pro-abortion.” Because that’s true. But safe and legal. And of course, these are often the same folks that want to prohibit birth control, too. Let’s ask Bristol Palin how that abstinence thing is workin’ out.

      Isn’t it wonderful to read about Sister Joan? I googled her — she sounds amazing.

      Like

  23. Great post, us usual. These things need to be said; thank you for being brave enough to say them.

    Like

  24. Paul

    Very thought provoking post Elyse.Thank You for your examination and explanation of this topic – I have never seen it expressed this way before. Well done.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks, Paul.

      (I read this comment yesterday and thought I responded to it previously. Hope you weren’t holding your breath waiting for my response 😉 )

      Like

  25. The good nun points out the absolute mockery of common sense among politicians now, particularly those on the right. Your recent posts, Elyse, continue to remind me how this wasn’t alway so. At one point we actually had two parties that would debate actual *merits* of an argument instead of double-speak and empty symbolism. Thanks for writing this.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Elyse – all I can say is, an excellent post from one of the most stand-up people in the blogosphere that I’ve met. I’m glad I know you.

    Like

    • I thought, from your recent re-post, that you were on the other side of this debate.

      Like

      • No, not really. I wasn’t trying to be judgmental about a woman’s rights, I was just trying to get in the head of the child that isn’t. I guess being a pseudo-writer, I want to live in the heads of other beings. It’s fiction, but it’s what I feel that a person who I’ll never be might feel. It was really not a political statement at all, although I know it could be taken that way.

        Liked by 1 person

  27. “Pro-birth’ still sounds too positive, so how about a “foeto-phile”? Or “anti-choicer”? Or “procreationist”? Or “pre-life advocate”?

    Liked by 1 person

  28. Amen. Back in my early brain washed years I was staunchly anti-abortion. Then I went to medical school….

    Like

    • I was once staunchly anti-abortion, too, when I was very young. But I lived in utter terror of getting pregnant. I don’t know what really changed my mind about it — I wish I did. Maybe when I learned how challenging life really is in the real world?

      There was an op-ed piece in the NYTimes a few years ago from a doctor who had been a practicing OBGYN in the 60s and 70s. His description of the results of back alley abortions were horrific. The column has vanished.

      Liked by 1 person

  29. Refreshing, for that to come from a nun. I wonder what the Pope would think. Wait a second, he’s a man, so who cares? I’m a man also, so I don’t weigh in on this issue much. To me, it’s a woman’s issue that is best resolved by women. In fact, I’d like to see some sort of national referendum on abortion, where only women are allowed to vote. Let the law follow the way women vote on it.

    Liked by 1 person

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